⚠️ IMPORTANT NOTICE ⚠️ This site is no longer managed and is outdated.
For the most updated information head to: https://RepsGuide.com/guide/
Watches
Community Links
Recommended Sellers List
Below is a list of sellers verified through the community as having a variety of content and confirmed legitimacy as a seller at r/ChinaTime tier. Their product quality will range from bottom shitter to high tier, based on your request, preferences, cost and QC approval.
These are different to a Trusted Dealer (or TD) at r/RepTime level, as these TDs go through a stringent review process
Last updated 5 Dec 2022.
WuWatch
Web: https://wuwatch.cartel.click/
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/21178530
WeChat: WuWatch-
WhatsApp: +86 199 2759 6945
Yupoo: N/A
Duke Jones
Web: https://www.duke-jones.com/
WeChat: pmmhq520
WhatsApp: +86 176 0800 5834
Yupoo: https://p719583387.x.yupoo.com/albums PW: 888888 (previously 666666)
HontWatch
Web: http://www.hontwatch.ru/
WeChat: N/A
WhatsApp: +86 131 1330 7655
The One Watches
Dhgate: N/A
Web: https://www.theonewatches.io/
WeChat: The5711
WhatsApp: +86 170 8193 4955
Email: Theonewatches.ru@gmail.com
Jason007
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/14498114
Web: https://u-onewatch.com/
WeChat: N/A
WhatsApp: +86 159 1439 7518 & +86 137 3343 7007
Btime
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/20042879
Web: https://58vakcak.com/
WeChat: N/A
WhatsApp: +86 185 8882 2256
Hanbelson
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/20777759
Yupoo: https://hanbelsonwatch.x.yupoo.com/ PW: 2021511
lkwatches
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/19780983
Stas
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/21229352
Bilibili_watch
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/21059386
Yupoo: https://zywatch.x.yupoo.com
Luxurywatches 1
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/21113018
Yupoo: https://kevin-snir.x.yupoo.com/
Fujimin003
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/20539379
Yupoo: https://alan-123456.x.yupoo.com/albums
Watch GT01
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/21347248
Joan007
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/20952500
Hello_watch
Dhgate: https://www.dhgate.com/store/20223682
lussoreloj
Dhgate: https://dhgate.com/store/21441757
Mark1994
Dhgate: https://dhgate.com/store/20535850
Trusted Dealers List
This is a list of Trusted Dealers for r/RepTime tier sales and have undergone a strict process to be approved as a TD.
The websites & email addresses listed here are the only one to be used. Any other website found online or in a post other than from the dealer itself are not recommended. Be careful, copycat websites are one of the most common scam out there and their addresses are very similar. Do your due diligence before making any online order.
Asian7750
ChazingTime
Dealer Clocks
Geek Time
HONTWATCH
InTime Watches
TheOneWatches
Toro Bravo
Watch Eden
Trusty Time
Extended list:
https://forum.replica-watch.info/forums/trusted-rep-dealers.147/Last update 9/1/2023
Introduction to r/ChinaTime
Welcome to r/chinatime, a huge community of over twenty thousand diverse people who share two things in common: The love of great-looking watches and being really fucking cheap. In most places those two things couldn’t co-exist together in the same place, but Chinatime isn’t most places; here those two things don’t just exist happily together, they are a way of life™.
Replica watches are a weird thing. People from r/reptime love the word “replica” and get butt-hurt when their $400 Rolex is called “fake”. We can understand that, as those replica watches can truly be works of engineering themselves and can even be of the same quality as the pieces that inspired them. Here at Chinatime, though, we do not put on such airs. If our watches are fake-ass watches that cost less than some of my Uber trips, and that’s OK.
We could spend a lot more money on arguably better watches that look more like the originals, but there’s something truly rewarding about tracking down a treasure on Ali Express or DH Gate that looks close enough to the genuine article for $50 that one simply can’t be found when ordering one of the master-class Reptime watches. Sure, one day I’ll have an ARF* or Noob Submariner that would fool my Rolex rep, but for now my U1 Submariner fools my Uber driver and parole officer, and for now that’s good enough for me. Oh, it keeps good time, too, which is nice.
(* There will not be a full glossary at the end of this piece explaining most of the terms we use in this sub to talk about our awesome reps, but explanations will be peppered throughout. “Arf” and “Noob” and “U1”, for example, are all well-respected fake watch manufacturers in China.)
Getting started
If you’re here to learn more about this world, then that’s great, because this interest in cheap rep watches that you have may turn into a hobby, which may then turn into an obsession. I’ve made friends on this subreddit because that’s what like-minded people do when they all become fans of the same thing, and we’re happy you’ve decided to learn more with us.
Automatic vs Quartz
To get started it helps to know a bit about watches themselves, besides how they look. Most of the watches we talk about in this subreddit are what are referred to “automatic” watches. Most watches in the world are quartz, but for the most part they don’t carry much weight here, because most of the watches we’re interested in the fake-versions-of are automatics, not quartz. This is because quartz watches can literally be found in vending machines, but automatic watches have a degree of engineering and craftsmanship to them, even the cheapest of them. Also, most of the Swiss shit we can’t afford are autos, as well.
An automatic watch is simply one that is wound by the person wearing the watch simply doing their shit. There’s no battery; instead there is a rotor that is connected to the mainspring of the watch. As the wearer does whatever the fuck it is they do all day, their movement moves the rotor, which acts as a pendulum, which winds the watch, and then it tells the user what time it is so they can get home in time to catch their wife in bed with their boss. These are the important matters we deal with.
Not all the watches we deal with here are autos, but the vast majority of them are. Quartz units are generally relegated to the chronograph copies (which means “watches that are also stopwatches that you’ll never actually use”), though there are a few non-chrono quartzes peppered here and there, but not many.
The Rotor & Movement
The rotor of an automatic watch is mounted on what’s called the movement of the watch. The movement is not the sweep of the seconds hand but rather the name for the guts of the watch itself — the gears, the springs, the cogs, and everything else that makes a watch keep time. It is arguably the most important part of a watch to consider when making buying choices, so knowing a few basics can really help you to make the right choice when it comes time to buy your first watch.
For example, a large percentage of the watches on Chinatime will be built around a fairly generic movement called the 2813. The 2813 is a Chinese clone of the Japanese Miyota 8205/8215 movement, which is to be found in a number of Citizen brand watches, as well as high-end Invicta divers and many, many more. The Miyota is a well-respected and sturdy movement, but the 2813 clones not so much. The most famous of these clones is the DG2813, though the rest are made by several factories in China. Because of this the quality varies from movement to movements and thus watch to watch, since there’s very little in the way of quality control when the Chinese factories make our watches for us. This is part of why they’re so cheap, and really part of the fun and charm.
Fun fact! There is an ETA2813 that is an actual Swiss movement, and the Chinese 2813 (often called a2813 where “a” means “Asia”) may have started life as a clone of it, but it’s a Miyota clone now, so there we go.
So now you know what a movement is and why it’s important, but that’s not what you’re here to find. You’re here to find some timepiece that will act as either a panty-moistener or pants-tightener when you wear it around your town/school/cellblock/institution, and most people don’t care about the movement.
Finding the watch you want (or ‘W2C’ aka Want To Cop/obtain)
You probably instead already have a model of watch in mind that you’d like to find a cheap rep for, and there’s a really good chance that there’s at least some Chinatime-budget version out there for you. It’s just a matter of finding it, and that is where this subreddit shines, because chances are that some other cheap fuck had the exact same idea as you, and since so many of our users share their triumphs with the rest of us there’s a good chance you’re watch is linked to in one of the posts already here. I know most subreddits have a “search it first” mantra, and that’s because that shit works, so use it.
If your watch has been found and purchased before, and the users reported back here (which they should do, more on that later), then you can usually find in their post or comment a link to the watch they bought under the label of “W2C”, which stands for “Want to cop”, which is a weird phrase brought over from Chinatime’s big dickhead brother Reptime. Cop or w2c means to “get your hands on” and “want to” is something none of Harvey Weinstein’s victims ever said.
Using DHGate
So you find the watch, find the W2C link, and then you’ll be taken to a place to buy the watch. Usually that place will be DHGate, (or The Gate,) a Chinese website that’s sort of a second home for us here. That’s because The Gate has about a thousand vendors selling about a couple hundred (at least) different rep watches at a variety of price points, meaning that you’ll probably be able to find your watch there at the price you want.
DHGate is hard to navigate for most of us because it’s a Chinese website in English and they do a very poor job of quality control when it comes to organization of products. This may be on purpose — selling fake versions of real watches violates international law, and by not making it easy to find a particular watch they get a bit of reasonable deniability when questioned by the authorities. But with some practice, patience, help from here, and luck, you’ll be able to find what you’re looking for.
Fun fact! Buying replicas of real watches for a fraction of the price is understandably illegal in most countries, so all of us here are, technically, taking part in a huge act of fraud and/or larceny, you newly-minted criminal you. The good news is that Customs in most countries are far too busy with actual problems to really care about what we do here, so don’t sweat the whole petty felony thing too much.
So you’ve got your watch in mind, you’ve searched for the W2Cs on here and found a few, and even checked out the links on The Gate, which is awesome, because that means I’m doing a good job here. The next logical step is choosing which rep watch to get, and this is where things can get a bit tricky — not to mention sketchy.
This may surprise some of our more sensitive newcomers, but it has to be said: Not all of the vendors on sites like DHGate can be trusted! In fact, it’s best to assume that most of them are out to scam you, because it’s very easy to scam someone on the Internet from a completely different hemisphere, and it happens all the fucking time. But you don’t want it to happen to you, and neither do we, so this next part is for you: Do your fucking research.
Also, use our guide of trusted sellers.
There are a few vendors that we like to go to again and again (more on them later) because they are simply good to work with. Some of them might be a couple bucks more expensive here and there but it’s made up for with customer service and not getting your credit card charged for $2500 in the middle of the night in Hunan Province.
Navigate & Communicate on the ‘Gate
It’s worth noting that in Chinese culture there is (traditionally speaking) no such thing as “customer service”. Our western notion of sales customs, where the vendor caters to the customer, is not universal, and certainly not the norm in parts of Asia. This is an important thing to keep in mind, as things don’t always go smooth, and acting like a total Karen will get your messages blocked and you’ll never get a resolution. Always be respectful (but not a sucker) and things will go a lot smoother.
When looking over the different offerings from the different vendors, the two most important things you can do are:
Ask us for advice, such as “has anyone else here ever dealt with ‘TittyBobbyJill20000057’?
Check the customer reviews on the product you’re looking at!
As noted before, there are a lot of independent vendors on The Gate and the other sites, and chances are you’re not the first person looking for your particular watch, so learn from the mistakes and successes of those who came before you. Feel free to ask anyone here, and always — always! — check the customer reviews, especially if they have photos.
Fun fact! There are a few search terms you can use to find the watch you want since you generally can’t find them via their actual brand names because that just becomes blatant counterfeiting, and we can’t have that. For Omegas, search for “co-axial”; for Rolex, search for the model number; for Tag Heuer sports watches, search for “I have no taste in anything and will die alone”. Try it out yourself!
This is because very often the photos of the watch you see on the DHGate listing is not a photo of the actual watch you’ll be receiving. Often it’s the genuine (or “gen”) article in the photos, presumably to help shoppers find what they want. They will often have pictures of the actual units they sell mixed in, so check those, but make sure to check for photos of received units in the reviews, as these are unfiltered and unmoderated feedback directly from and to customers like you. It’s a great tool that will save everyone a lot of grief and headache if used correctly.
Asking for Quality Check (QC) Photos
In addition, reputable vendors are often happy to send you photos of the actual watches themselves if there are none in the reviews. Add to that the fact that we love doing our own reviews here, and you’ll be in good shape to buy the watch you want from a trusted seller and be very happy with it.
This, though, is where things get tricky. Since sites like DHGate and AliExpress are in China, not every bank or credit card vendor will work to place your order, so make sure that you have at least two different accounts to try from. In addition, keep in mind that there are sophisticated hacker-bros in China that would love nothing more than have access to a foreign credit card that works in their country easily. For my own purchases, I use my CapitalOne credit card via their Eno system which generates a one time “burner number” for each of my transactions. See if your cards or bank offer the same kind of thing if at all possible.
If you’ve found your watch, and you’ve found your vendor, and made your purchase, then you should have your watch — sometime in the distant future.
Shipping from China
Cheap quality watches are cheap by skimping on a few things, and one of those things is fast shipping. Most watches include free shipping, (via China’s EMS or ePacket services,) but that free shipping can take a long fucking time. It’s not uncommon for watches to take a month and a half to arrive, so if you’re in a hurry to get something for a certain event, like a court date, use one of the paid services (DHL, etc.) to get it faster. But keep in mind that you still might be in for a wait, because that’s how things in China work.
Some sellers are faster than others, and your research here should tell you which are known for fast shipments, so it’s worth taking into consideration when making your choice.
Customs & Replica Watches
Sometimes, though, things happen, and it’s far too common for things to go wrong on the shipment part.
Fun fact! Chinese people are a lot like you, only way more broke and oppressed. The average person there makes about $15k a year. The few bucks they make off of selling fake watches to the rest of the world is real money to them, so if things go wacky don’t automatically assume that you’re being scammed, just be aware that they’ll also do anything they can to not have to issue a refund, so be willing to work with them.
If your watch gets seized by customs then you’ll get a letter. Ignore it, tell your vendor, and they’ll generally send you a new one. This kind of thing is factored into their prices as the cost of doing business.
If your tracking number shows your watch going somewhere far away that’s not you, there are a few reasons why this can happen. If you’re shipping with DHL you should know that they often recycle waybill numbers (I’m not kidding, it just happened to me). It’s also possible the vendor just mixed up your tracking number with someone else’s, which is also common. Or, also too common, your vendor is trying to scam you. Do not let them off the hook.
Every case is different, so we won’t attempt to tackle a “how to” on dealing with problems like this on sites like The Gate, but enough people here have been through it that they’ll be happy to help you navigate it, since we hate when those fuckers try stuff on any of us.
Receiving Your New Watch
So let’s say you’ve managed to not fuck up all of the above. That means that your watch has arrived and you’re stoked, and you should be! The process isn’t the easiest, but the reward is worth it.
Wear your watch. Get to know it. Maybe you’ll need to re-size the bracelet (we can help walk you through that) or something’s wrong with it (that, too), or maybe you need to brag to some people (that would be us). That is why we do ask that you share it with us. (Don’t forget the lume shot!)
Take photos, videos, post a review, post a W2C link, and answer any questions others may have, because you were only successful because others pass on their knowledge to you, and it would be good to show the other newcomers how it works. It’s part of what makes this subreddit more than just a place to get links and instead a place that’s genuinely fun to waste time on.
We’re glad you’ve decided to take the morally ambiguous step towards becoming a Chinatime bro or bro-ette (for there are more rep-ladies here than one might think) and welcome you to the world of like-minded cheapskates who would still like to enjoy build quality and the classical aesthetics that go along with world class timepieces.
Introduction to r/RepTime
Welcome to Reptime! It’s a great place to hopefully help you find what you’re looking for. There’s a lot of information and it all depends on how far down the rabbit hole you wanna go, but you can get anything from the crappy DHGate/AliExpress $30 fakes, all the way to a top tier replica for $300-700. You can even go further than how it came to you from China by “frankening” the piece – adding genuine and other modded components to help the watch achieve a look ‘even closer to gen’.
Trusted Dealers
Trusted dealers have earned their way to that status – trusted – because they have a large customer base and are willing to go through investigations through the forums that have a tough and active moderation team (RWI, RWG, etc) if a sale goes awry.
I recommend if you are going to utilize a trusted dealer (which is the ONLY way as far as I’m concerned), make sure you have an active account on the forums and post there so that the moderation team can back your order. Trusted dealers get not a ton of dough from your sale, but they almost all offer a customs guarantee – you will receive a replacement watch for free if customs seizes it. Be nice and remember that they are doing work for you and should be compensated for that time.
The trusted dealer experience works differently for each one, but for the most part, the flow is as follows:
- Order (either through their website, wechat/whatsapp, or through email). They are busy. Keep your emails short and to the point. Don’t ask too many questions.
- Payment – some accept credit cards*, others primarily do crypto, Western Union, Transferwise and Moneygram. Some accept some of the more convenient services like paypal, but you typically have to be an upstanding member of the community for over a year.
- Wait for QC. This can take 2-21 days depending on availability. Typical turnaround time is 2-7 days.
- Once QC is received, these are pictures of the actual watch you will get in the mail. Make sure you check it for major defects. Don’t get too picky, remember that these are $3-400 replicas of $2k-60k watches, made by people who probably make a bit more than minimum wage in some cases. If a TD rejects a watch too many times, the factory or dealer they buy from will begin to refuse sending new watches and just offer a refund. I won’t get into how to approve QC, because you should be doing research on the model you want and what you want to look out for.
- Once you approve QC, it will take 1-5 days for the TD to send it off to their courier. You can also ship via triangle shipping, which is a higher price, but recommended for European countries.
- While in transit, the package has to make it through customs in China and customs in your country of origin. If it gets seized in your country, you will get a letter. Don’t respond to the letter ever, just send that to your TD and they will order a new one for you as part of the guarantee. If it doesn’t get seized, it typically takes
5-7 days from TD to your front doorwith freight restrictions globally, expect shipping time to take anywhere from 10 days to 8 weeks. - Enjoy the watch. Get a $20 watch service kit from Amazon or whatever and resize the bracelet.
- DON’T TAKE IT TO A JEWELLER AND PRETEND IT’S THE REAL THING. They will lie to your face and make you think they think it’s real because its good customer service to make people feel good about themselves. They are trained to do that. Just some practical advice – take it or leave it – don’t tell your friends and loved ones that these are the real thing. It’s better to be honest. If you want to know the full reason, PM me, I’m happy to share why honesty is important.
- What if your watch is broken upon arrival? You MUST make a log in on the forums where the dealer is a trusted dealer, and post enough there in order to log a ticket to file a dispute. They will not help you if you create an account after your issue arises with a TD. It is their rules.
* Some have reported credit card numbers being stolen after using at TD websites. While the TDs are trusted, sometimes the agencies/companies they use to process credit card transactions aren’t trusted. They try their hardest, but there have been slip ups in the past.
SourceGlossary of Common Terms
AD: Authorized Dealer who sells genuine watches.
AP: Audemars Piquet.
AR: Anti-Reflective coating. It is a coating that is placed on watch crystals to deflect glare. Can be single or double sided. Double AR can scratch as one layer is on the outside of the crystal.
B&R: Bell & Ross.
BCE: Short for Breitling Chronomat Evolution.
Beginmariner: An entry level Submariner. Referred to by other names such as Noobmariner and VIPmariner.
Bling: A watch encrusted with diamonds or jewels.
Breit: Short for Breitling.
BST: Buy, Sell & Trade
Builder: A Watchsmith or Watchmaker who builds watches from the ground up.
Bump: The process of bumping a thread back to the top of the new posts section because the poster feels it contains information they want others to see.
C1: A model of Concord watch.
CC: Credit Card.
CG: Crown Guard.
CN: Short for China or Chinese.
CNY: Chinese currency or Chinese New Year.
CONUS: Continental United States (See IN CONUS).
DD: Rolex Day Date
DHL: A shipper often used by the dealers.
DJ: Rolex Datejust
DRSD: Rolex Double Red Sea-Dweller
DW: Datewheel.
EMS: Express Mail Service. They are the usual courier for packages.
ETA: A Swiss movement used in watches. Also available as a China made clone. Gen (Swiss) ETAs are now very rare in reps.
Fakebreaking: A phenomenon wherein rep buyers constantly break certain models of watches. Even if the movements in those watches are commonly used in gens with no issues. This is caused by a failure to understand the limitations of a mechanical timepiece in general. Gen owners are usually not afflicted by this. An example would be the Rolex Daytona. (See Seconds @6).
Fedex: A package delivery service. NEVER USE THEM FOR REPS!
Fiddy: Panerai 127
Fidestro: Panerai 217
FM: Abbreviation for Franck Muller
Franken: A watch that has had genuine parts added to it in order to make it closer to the genuine counterpart.
Gen: Short for genuine watch.
Group Buy: A forum-wide mass buy where items can be purchased at a discounted price.
GBP: British Pound.
HBB: Hublot Big Bang.
HVS: High Value Sale.
Black Magic: An all black Hublot Big Bang.
IMO: In my opinion.
IN CONUS: A designation when something or someone is in the Continental United States. Also a designation in sales ads when someone will only ship within that area (See CONUS).
IWC: International Watch Company.
Lume: The material applied to a watch dial that makes it glow in the dark.
LV: Abbreviation for the Rolex anniversary LV (Lunette Verde) Submariner. Also used to describe Louis Vuitton.
Modded: A watch that has been altered from it’s OEM state.
Mods: Customisations applied to a watch.
Modder: Someone who performs aftermarket modifications to timepieces.
MOP: Short for Mother of Pearl dial.
NWBIG: Stands for ‘Not Worth Buying In Genuine’. A watch with a replica so good there is no point paying the real counterpart.
OEM: Original Equipment Manufacturer.
OP: Original poster.
PAM: Panerai.
PO: Short for Omega Planet Ocean.
POS: Piece of shit.
PP: PayPal. Also an abbreviation for Patek Philippe.
PVD: Physical Vapor Deposition. A particle vacuum coating process used on watches.
QC: Quality Control, Usually refers to the photos sent by a dealer to approve the watch you will be receiving.
Rehaut: The metal ring between the crystal and dial on a watch.
Rep: Short for replica.
RG/Repgeek: A replica forum.
Rollercoasting: When a watch hand has not been installed level. As it spins it moves up and down vertically like a rollercoaster and at some point touches the inside of the crystal jacking everything up.
Rollie: Rolex.
ROO: A model made by Audemar Piquet, the Royal Oak Offshore.
RWG.CC: A replica forum.
RWG.BZ: Our sister forum, often referred to as “The wild west of rep fora”
RWI: A forum full of autistic and rude old fucks that think elitism about fake watches is cool.
SEL: Solid End Link. A type of bracelet end link (the bit that joins the bracelet to the watch).
Slevin: Nickname for the IWC Aquatimer.
SMP: Short for Omega Seamaster Professional.
SOH: Breitling Superocen Heritage
SOSF: Short for Superocean Steelfish. It is not SFSO, SSFO, SOF or SF .
SV: Supporting Vendor. A Type of dealer.
Tag: Tag Heuer.
TNT: Another delivery service used by the dealers. Generally for air shipment.
Trustytime ’aka Andrew’: a dealer.
UN: Ulysses Nardin.
UPO: Short for Ultimate Omega Planet Ocean.
UPS: United Parcel Service.
USPS: United States Postal Service
V1/V2/V3/V20????: A term applied to each new version of the previously described ‘Ultimate/1:1/Exact copy’ that was released even though it was already perfect.
VC: Vacheron Constantin
W2B/WTB: Want To Buy aka Where can I find this watch so I can buy it.
W2C: Want To Cop aka Where can I find this watch so I can buy it.
Watch Expert: Someone who has extensive knowledge about timepieces. They are often also a Watchsmith, Watchmaker or Modder (See Builder & Modder).
WU: Western Union. Also ‘Wu’ which is short for the watch dealer WuWatch.
Yachtie: Short for Rolex Yachtmaster.
Buying Replica Watches Common Q&A
Which Factories Make the Best Models
Guide to r/Chinatime Quality Checking QC a Watch
Guide to r/RepTime Quality Checking QC a Watch
Guide to Watch Movements
Common movements used in rep watches
Non-chronos (i.e. if the watch has subdials, they will not work in the same way as the gen)
1. 21J/DG2813 (note that despite the “21J” description these movements usually run 23 jewels). This is a generic term used to cover a wide variety of cheap Chinese movements – some are better than others, but as a general rule they are low-beat (21,600vph / 6 ‘ticks’ per second) movements, very cheaply built (from as little as $7 for the whole movement) but generally reliable and easy to live with. Usually automatic, but occasionally hand wind, dependent on the watch. A lot of really nice budget watches come with these fitted and whilst the sweep isn’t as smooth as, say, a gen Rolex, they’re damned good value for money and can just be thrown away and replaced if they break or need a service.
There’s also the DG4813 variant, which is high-beat but this has become very difficult to obtain of late, so is not commonly seen. It has largely been replaced by the Z2 (see below)
2. Z2 aka ‘high beat 2813’ aka various other names. Some have suggested that this is one to avoid, but it’s not quite that clear cut. Basically a cheap 28,800vph alternative to the “Asian ETA” movements, these are occasionally swapped into existing models by the factories without informing the dealers. Reliability can be okay – provided you get a good one. The real issue is that there are no parts available, so servicing can be a problem. The Asian ETAs are a much better choice, but these are maybe worth considering if the price is right – just don’t be conned into buying high-priced reps with ’em, it ain’t worth it.
3. Asian ‘clone’ ETA (A2824/A2836 & variants): These are literally copies/clones of the equivalent Swiss (ETA) automatic movements. Generally high quality – although not as well built as the Swiss equivalents – but reliable and with parts generally available (which makes servicing an easier proposition than some other movements). High beat (28,800) and great value. Probably the best choice of movement for higher-quality reps as they give the smooth sweep found in most gen watches
4. Swiss ETA (2836/2824 as above): Supposedly the genuine ETA (owned by swatch group) swiss automatic movements. This is a complete lottery. ETA have not been supplying ebauches outside Swatch group for several years now. There are NO new ETA movements in reps any more – only refurbished (usually with Asian parts). On top of that, as anyone who’s been in the game for a while should know, factories tell the dealer the spec of the watch they’re producing – and the dealers then use that for their sales pitch. That spec often then changes dependent on what parts the factories have available on a particular day – about which they DO NOT inform the dealers. Given that dealers DO NOT take the back off the watch during QC (nor should they), they’re as much in the dark about it as you. At best you get a refurbished (i.e. used) movement with asian parts in it. I wouldn’t recommend spending extra for ETA in a rep these days – more often than not, you’ll be getting an asian clone.
5. Sellita: As mentioned above, supply of ETA movements is getting very difficult as Swatch group are no longer selling ebauches outside their own group of companies. Sellita are another Swiss company who make a very similar range of high-quality movements. We’ve seen a few reps with “Swiss ETA” being supplied with Sellitas, but they’re fairly rare.
6. Rolex 3135 copy (and other Rolex clone movements). This is an Asian clone ETA automatic movement with modified rotor and bridges to make it look more like the real thing. It’s not going to convince anybody who knows their Rolex movements and tends to be less reliable than the alternatives (as well as being more expensive!). There are newer versions beginning to appear which are a little more reliable and look closer to the gen, but they are still near impossible to service and generally inferior to the clone ETAs. Rolex have closed casebacks anyhow, so I really don’t see the point in paying the extra for what is, effectively, just a higher-priced and less reliable Asian clone movement.
There is one notable exception to the above – the Yuki-sourced movement used by JF in their new (as of 2017) high-end subs. This is a proper copy of the Rolex movements (to the extent of being compatible with a lot of gen parts) and is much better quality than the modified Asian ETA-based clones otherwise supplied in reps. A good movement and well worth consideration.
7. Miyota 9015. With the disappearance of gen ETA movements, some reps are now coming with Japanese Miyota-sourced movements. The 9015 is a case in point – a high-beat 28,800vph 25 jewel movement that is an excellent alternative to ETA or clone ETA models mentioned above. Highly reliable and very good quality. Don’t hesitate.
8. Miyota 8215. As above, a solid workhorse movement. The only gotcha is that the second hand on these movements tends to stutter a little and is therefore a lot less smooth than the 9015 or, say, an Asian 2836 clone. The amount of stutter is dependent on the weight of the second hand – the heavier/longer the hand, the worse it’s going to be. I’d certainly avoid this movement on watches such as Tudors which tend to have “snowflake” hands. Although the 8215 is reliable, for this reason I would tend to think carefully before buying a watch with this movement.
9. Sea-Gull. Sea-Gull are a chinese maker of both movements and watches. Quality is very close to that of the Swiss and Japanese manufacturers and they’re generally a very safe buy – they make clones of several well-known movements (such as the 6497) as well as their own designs. The ST2555 has lately been turning up in quite a few reps. As with Miyota, they’re a good choice. Don’t hesitate.
10. A6497/A6498: An Asian copy of the Unitas 6497 or 6498 movement. Common in Panerai and various others – it’s an ultra-reliable yet inexpensive hand wind movement available with or without swan-neck regulator. Note, however, that there are several different grades and some are better built than others. However, they’re easy to service and generally bombproof. Either 18,000vph (5 ‘ticks’ per second) or 21600 vph (6 ‘ticks’ per second) but it is hard to tell the difference visually due to the short seconds hand (where fitted). It can come with or without a seconds hand, but usually with. If it has a seconds hand, the 6497 has the seconds hand opposite the crown (i.e. at 9 if the crown is at 3) whereas the 6498 has the seconds 90 degrees to the left of the crown (i.e. at 6 if the crown is at 3).
11. Swiss Unitas 6497/6498: Again, a hand wind movement. They used to be found in some higher-end Panerai reps but that has now ended since ETA quit supplying ebauches outside Swatch Group some years back.
12. Molnija: Not common these days, but DSN and others have used them on occasion – mainly for vintage Panerai models. This is actually a Russian-built descendant of the Cortebert (latterly Rolex) hand-wind pocketwatch movements used by Panerai and others in the 40s-50s. Very high quality but parts can be tricky to obtain. Functionally similar to the 6497 above and generally reliable, but less robust than the 6497.
13. Asian 52010 aka Liaoning SL6601. This movement has started to appear in the IWC 5007 and could, of course, turn up in other reps with similar functions in due course. It supports secs@9, PR @3 plus date. Liaoning are another well-established Chinese maker of movements – quality is generally good, although parts can be difficult to obtain. Should be relatively easy to service and reliability appears to be decent.
Then there are a few that don’t fit any of the above groups. Movements advertised as “Asian 23J with power reserve” being probably the most common. These can vary from being basic 21J’s with an added module for the PR complication to something like Sea Gull’s 23J PR movement – the latter being of rather better quality than most other low-beat autos and likely to be long-term reliable. You’ll also see ‘Asian 35J” movements advertised fairly frequently – which can also be from a range of sources but are often higher-quality generic Chinese movements similar to the Sea-Gull mentioned above – not as good as a normal Asian clone or other mainstream movement and generally low-beat, but can be good value for money in the right rep. One last oddity worth mentioning is the A7750 as described below. This is sometimes used as a regular automatic movement with the chrono complications removed (most often in Panerai autos). In this form it is much less fragile and many of the caveats mentioned elsewhere no longer apply. Likewise you will – even more rarely – find the same non-chrono A7750 with the auto-wind mechanism removed. This essentially removes the fragile parts that can be damaged by hand-winding on the normal version and is, likewise, not subject to most of the caveats noted elsewhere.
Chrono movements:
Japan OS chrono (aka Japan Quartz aka a variety of other names): Basically cheap quartz chrono movements (i.e. battery powered). Reliable, great timekeepers, cheap. There’s a couple of varieties with different features, but quality is the same. If you can live with a ticking chrono hand (and seconds subdial) rather than the smooth sweep provided by autos, then there’s no reason not to buy one of these. Note that there are ‘smooth sweep’ quartz movements available and they very occasionally show up in reps. They’re a bit more expensive than regular quartz, but good quality. The smooth sweep applies to center seconds (i.e. the chrono hand) only, however – not running seconds in a subdial.
A7750 (occasionally called Asian Valjoux 7750): The standard automatic chrono movement used in a vast range of replica watches. Usually high-beat (28,800vph), but there is an older low-beat (21,600 vph) variant which still pops up now and again. Occasionally converted to hand-wind and also used in some non-chrono reps. Can be fragile and is difficult to service due to the lack of available spares. When serviced and running properly, however, it’s solid and works well. See the separate sticky about caveats as there are problems with some adaptations to this movement: http://www.replica-watches-guide.com/forum…?showtopic=6101
A7753: This is a variant on the A7750 and not a true clone of the Swiss 7753. Its primary difference from the A7750 is that its native position for subdials is 3, 6, 9 as opposed to 6, 9,12 for the 7750. The resulting lack of transfer gearing needed to move the subdials into the more common 3, 6, 9 position reduces the distance between datewheel and dial eliminating the ‘sunken datewheel’ seen on many reps. These movement also frequently feature a pusher (usually flush) at the 10 position which operates quick-set date. So far it has only made it into a handful of fairly recent models (notably Panerai). In other respects it shares the same strengths and weaknesses with its A7750 sibling, but the lack of transfer gearing does make it a little more robust in some cases.
A7751: This is a goodie as it replicates all the functions of the genuine Swiss movement including working moonphase complication. Found in a limited number of reps (notably a couple of Longines and Patek models). Should be treated gently but generally appears to be reliable.
Swiss Valjoux 7750: Used to appear in high-priced reps occasionally, but no longer available to the rep makers since ETA quit supplying ebauches to makers outside Swatch Group.
Copy Venus (or sometimes inaccurately described as Lemania). Actually a Sea Gull ST19 – fundamentally the same as the original Swiss Venus movement as Sea-Gull bought the original tooling. This is an excellent handwind chrono movement. Very reliable and feels like quality. The most robust chrono movement in reps outside of quartz options. Don’t hesitate.
- 3Hz is also called 21600bph or 6bps, 4Hz is 28800bph or 8bps.
The reason for this disparity (3Hz vs 6bps or 4Hz vs 8bps) is that the balance wheel advances the second hand both on the clockwise turn and counterclockwise turn, so a full turn cycle is 2 beats.
Chinese 21J, Chinese 23J – no-name movements, based on DG2813 (if you’re lucky) or the Chinese Standard Movement and company, that the Chinese have perfected… mostly when it comes to cost of production – they can make a shitty versions for under 10 dollars, but you cannot expect any kind of reliability from it. The worst versions can be found in Chinese street reps and tend to break after a few months of use. If you ever see something like a Daytona with days of the week and month indicator on the subdials, you can bet it sports one of those bad boys.
Some of the more reputable factories sometimes use movement called that and you can expect them to be of a passable to good quality then, but it’s still hit or miss.
Most of them are 3Hz, some are 4Hz.DG2813 or other DG-something – firstly, it still might be the shitty movements described above (especially if called A2813), them being clones of DG movements, which are in turn clones of old movements from Citizen. If you get an actual DG2813, you should not expect amazing quality, but it is very reasonable for it to work for years (accuracy is another thing though).
Most of them are 3Hz, some are 4Hz (e.g. DG4813).A2824, A2836 – the best of the best – ETA used to have factories in China, so the Chinese know how to produce the movements. The materials are somewhat worse than ETA required and the quality control is nowhere near what you would find in a gen Breitling or such, but they are reliable, any watchsmith can service or repair them, and replacements are freely available anywhere.
They beat at 4Hz.A2892 – Chinese copy of a newer, thinner “version” of ETA 2824 – good movement, but way more rare and as such possibly slightly lower quality than the above two. Most of them will probably come from Sea-Gull, which would be good, but they might be QC rejects.
They beat at 4Hz.A6497/A6498 – clone of ETA Unitas 6497/6498, great movement, simple, handwound, you are most likely to find one in a Panerai rep and you can’t really go wrong with this one.
They beat at 3Hz.Swiss ETA 2824/2836/others – hit or miss – it depends on how the repmakers sourced it and how they stored it. I have a rep with a swiss movement and it performs beautifully, other people report the opposite – problems and having to replace. Could also get a Sellita instead of ETA (which is in no way a bad thing, Sellita is an excellent Swiss movement manufacturer and a former contractor for ETA).
They beat at 4Hz unless vintage (check specific model) or Unitas 6497 – 3Hz.A775X (X is placeholder for other digits) – ETA Valjoux 775X clone, used in most rep chronographs. More costly to service and harder to source than other Asian ETAs, also more likely to break – all of this because it’s more complex. Check if the positions of the subdials were modified compared to the original – if yes, that’s a major yellow flag when it comes to relability and servicability. There are exceptions – ZF IWC chronos for example started using a sensible mod that you can safely go for.
They beat at 4Hz.SA3135 – a modded A2836, may accept a genuine Rolex datewheel. Possibly the worst option you can get in a Submariner.
They beat at 4Hz.SH3135, SH3131, VR3135 – Chinese “superclone” rolex movements, harder to service than A2836, but a lot of people prefer them because they can fit a genuine datedisc on them (not SH3131 because it has no date). Not actual superclones (as in there are differences between those and actual Rolex movements), but can be swapped for a genuine movement if you can get your hands on one.
They beat at 4Hz.(S)A3186/(S)A3187 – modified asian ETA with contraptions that make it impossible to service and faulty. Best avoided, but currently the only way to get correct hand stack (as in order of hands seconds -> minutes -> 24hr -> 12hr) and setting method in Rolex GMT.
They beat at 4Hz.A4130 – a weird mod of A7750 with subdials moved and possibly decorated, which is pointless in a closed-caseback watch. Comments about modified A7750s apply.
They beat at 4Hz.SA4130 – either a complete superclone of Rolex 4130, or an ARF mod of A7750 – check if it’s from Noob Factory and expensive – if yes, its the former, otherwise the latter. ARF SA4130 simply doesn’t use the minutes and hours subdials (they are frozen) so there is little to no problem with added torque. If it’s not a new expensive Noob or ARF, it’s probably A4130 (described above) with an S tacked in front of the name.
They beat at 4Hz.A8900/A8500 (in Omega reps) – movements modified to look like Omega calibers. Used to be modified ETA clones or even modified Chinese 21J/23J, but lately VSF started boasting a “superclone” version that gives the same functionality as gen. Some people seem to overhype those “superclones” as actual complete cloned movements – this is not actually the case, but they are reportedly more reliable than SA3186/SA3187s which strive to provide a similar functionality. Also, no rep Omega movements have the correct beatrate currently (3.5Hz), none have actual co-axial escapement (to my knowledge), and they use overlays with fake jewels, so take VSF’s “almost the same as genuine movement” with a grain of salt.
They beat at 3Hz or 4Hz depending on the movement used as a base. VSF “superclones” beat at 4Hz.Sea-Gull movements – mostly good movements, but the versions used in reps are not exactly high end (more likely factory QC rejects or lower-tier versions).
Check specific model to know beatrate.Miyota movements – mostly good movements, but the versions used in reps are not exactly high end (more likely factory QC rejects or lower-tier versions). People were high on Miyota 9015 at first (it’s thin like ETA 2892) because it made some thin reps possible, going as far as putting it in Tudor Pelagos for example, but in the end a lot of Miyota9015 reps have noisy rotors (unidirectional rotors can rotate in one direction freely so it’s harder to silence), so their expansion into the rep industry has been halted somewhat. Miyota 8125 is mostly an entry-level movement and often found in Submariner homages for example.
Another thing worth mentioning is that SevenFriday reps use Miyota movements for a different reason entirely – the gens also do.
9015 beats at 4Hz, 8125 beats at 3Hz, movements in SevenFridays beat at 3Hz (at least all of those I know about).
Written by u/eposseeker
Which Factories Make the Best Models
Last updated 25 Oct 2022
In an attempt to help our community, many users have helped cultivate this guide. This is only meant as a guide and all decisions about a specific model and subtle differences aren't discussed in detail here. The intent here is to help you if you're looking for a generalized consensus of "Who makes the best submariner?". As factories frequently change and close down, I am hoping to keep this as updated as possible. Factories are listed in order of best to worst, if multiple factories are listed.
As always, please order your watch through a trusted dealer in the intro thread, and have fun. If you feel something needs updated, feel free to PM me, I'm always open to edit this list. Big shout out to u/Breitlingboi for his original guide and enthusiasm.
On a budget? See the guide of reps $250-$400.
Current brands covered:
1. Rolex
2. Patek Philippe
3. Audemars Piguet
4. Vacheron Constantin
5. Richard Mille
6. Omega
7. Gem set 'Iced Out' Watches
8. Cartier
Rolex
Submariner
126610LN, LV & all variants including gold and two tone:
3235 movement: VSF is best, Clean but has VR3235, then ZF third.
2836, 2824 movements: GMF/BP are good.
116610LN, LV & all variants including gold and two tone:
3135 movement: VSF, Clean, ZF
124060, 114060 (no date): VSF, Clean, BPF/GMF, ROF
Two tone and RG subs (i.e. 116613LB): VSF, Clean, GMF, ARF
Daytona
Special note: Noob Daytona v4 was the best awhile ago, but are now closed.
All Daytona models:
White dial ceramic bezel: Clean v1, Clean v2, BTF in that order
Black dial ceramic bezel: BTF
Other models: Look at both Clean and BTF variants, as well as QF. All use the clone movement and are good quality.
ARF has gen-like thickness (slightly thicker), but the subdials that would count hours and minutes while the chrono is working do NOT function. If you don’t use chrono often, or want a different style than what Clean has to offer, go for this one.
GMT Master II
PEPSI 126710BLRO, 116710BLRO: C+ Factory, Clean Factory, GMF v6 (get with VR3186 movement if you can)
BATMAN/BATGIRL 126710BLNR, 116710BLNR: C+ Factory, Clean, VRF, ARF (best insert, movement might be unstable)
116710LN: C+, Clean, VRF
VTNR Sprite: Clean, GF, GMF
Rootbeer: Clean, GMF with VR3186
GMT Master I: BPF
GMT Master 6542: RBF (only available via Puretime for some reason), may be out of stock now.
GMT Master II 16710, 16750m 16700: BP Factory (not quite gen spec but best we've got)
Explorer II 216570 - All models: GMF/BP ask for VR3186 if available
Explorer I 214270: BPF
Two-tone Explorer I 124273: GMF
Airking 116900: GMF (904L), BP (316L)
Milgauss 116400GV:
Blue: ARF or BPF
Black: BPF
Yachtmaster:
226659: VSF in white and yellow gold
116622: Clean, ARF
126622 (RG): Clean
116655 (Rose gold): Clean, VRF
126655 (Rose gold): Clean, EWF
268622 37mm: ARF
Datejust 36 - All models:
Decorated 3235: ARF. ARF has good dials, but date font can be too bold (v3 might be fixed now) and the crystal lacks enough AR coating on the cyclops.
2824: GMF is well executed overall, gold plating does not cover the side of the midlinks/endlinks, but the date font is better overall. There are a few other factories in the 36mm space, and GMF and ARF do not cover all dial variants. Take your time and look around and compare to gen
New 2021 & 2022 dial variants: GMF or BP.
Datejust 41 – All models:
3235 Clone movements: VSF (best movement), Clean (better movement)
2824: ZF, ARF, GMF and BP in that order
New 2021 & 2022 dial variants: GMF or BP.
DayDate 40 & 36 – All models: BPF, GMF
SkyDweller – all models: Noob v2. Has low beat movement, and other issues with the movement not being like gen, but it’s the best we’ve got.
Datejust 28 – all models: GMF
Oyster Perpetual 41: GMF, UBF with VR3230 movement.
Patek Phillipe
Nautilus
5711 all color dials - All models: PPF v4 best overall factory but has a fat bezel. 3KF v2 has a good movement but small date font.
5811 41mm Nautilus - no rep out yet
Iced out Nautilus - R8 factory. Very well done. DM v2 is also well done and differently styled (baguette bezel)
5712 (moonphase date) - PPF v2 (sometimes call v3) (now ZF). All functions are the same. Excellent rep.
5726 (triple calendar) - PPF (now ZF)
5980 Chronograph - I cannot recommend any good model. All have poor date font, too thick and not done very well. TWF, BPF and a few others are in this space.
7010 Ladies 33mm - PF. Overall well done, quartz movement.
7118 Ladies 35mm - PF. Very well done.
Aquanaut
5067 ladies 35mm aquanaut - PPF. Thin, quartz, but gen like.
5164 Travel Time - GRF v2. Too thick compared to gen, time zone functionality does not work. Gray dial and rose gold model are the only good options here.
5165 37mm - All models ZF. Excellent rep as well.
5167 40mm - All models: ZF Factory best overall factory, despite the "5" flaw (the line of the grenade pattern extends below the lower left of the 5 numeral, unlike gen). 3KF has a clone movement but machining is not as nice as ZF. OVERALL BEST AQUANAUT REP IN GENERAL is the ZF.
5168 42mm Blue and Green - ZF. Blue dial isn't quite as nice as gen, green dial and strap misses the mark compared to gen. Overall best execution though. 3KF has clone movement.
5968 Chronograph - OMF. Very thick, overall not recommended unless you like the look.
Calatrava
5077 - Notre Dame & Bhutan enamel craftsman dials - FLF Factory
5088 - FLF Factory
5089 Azulejos enamel craftsman dial - FLF Factory
5119 - TW Factory
5120 - TW Factory. Very nice execution.
5123 - TW Factory. Overall decent execution.
5196 sub seconds - AIF.
5296 (open caseback) - All models: ZF Factory. OVERALL BEST CALATRAVA IN GENERAL
5297G (diamond bezel) - ZF Factory
5153 (officer's caseback, smaller case) - All models: ZF Factory
5227 (officer's caseback, lacquer dial) - All models: ZF Factory. OVERALL BEST CALATRAVA IN GENERAL. 3KF has clone movement and is thinner.
6007 - ZF Factory. Dial and strap color are not as dark as gen.
7112 - KGF. Decent execution, not amazing.
Grand Complications
4968 Ladies moonphase - KGF.
5070 - There is a rep, unsure of the factory. Not all versions are in stock though.
5205 Triple calendar moonphase - GRF v2 or KMF. Both are not great compared to gen, honestly, but look fine enough.
5396 - GRF for all models.
Known issues: sunken date disc, smaller day and month font than gen.
5524 Travel Time - GRF v2. Get the blue textured dial with brown strap, but the GMT hand is fixed on a 24hr loop, and the inner circle of that hand should be blue and not white. time zone switching is faux. Dial is not as nice as gen, but overall nice try and relatively thin.
6102 Celestial map - TZF. Looks good, but functions nothing like gen. Not recommended overall unless you love the look.
NOTE: Patek has almost never put a tourbillon in a watch and had it visible from the dial side. They have for a select few references a long time ago.
Audemars Piguet
15500 41mm – ZF v3 with clone movement, APS v3 with clone movement (thick date font)
15400 41mm – ZF with clone 3120 movement, APS also with clone
15510 15550 37mm: TWF and IPF have a poor clone out
15450 37mm – JF
15202ST 39mm ultra thin – XF has thinner hand base, ZF has better dial color. Choose according to your preferences they are both great. XF is no longer available.
15202IP – ZF, XF (no longer available), BF
15202 green dial and diamond variants – BF v2
16202 - not available yet
15703 & 15710 42mm Offshore: APS has a clone movement. ZF and JF are overall similar enough.
Note: colored variants of these models will be from JF or BPF
15720 42mm Offshore: all 3 variants - BF Factory
67540 Ladies Offshore 37mm: unknown factory, but a high quality rep is out there with real diamonds. Ask your TD.
Royal Oak Tourbillon – R8 Factory
JF made a good ultra-thin tourbillon (but still ~11mm)
26579 Annual Calendar – ZP factory
26331 Chronograph – BF and OMF, but none are great.
Open work tourbillon – R8 factory
77350 34mm Royal Oak (ladies) – 8F
Royal Oak Offshore 44mm: JF for nearly all models
Vacheron Constantin
Overseas Ultra-thin 2000V: XF for all models (black, grey, blue) - currently closed. Cross is a bit flat below the 12 marker, movement finishing isn't great, but overall a great rep. 8F is good.
Overseas generation 2 reference 47040
JJF Factory is no longer making these, but in general had a good rep if you find it on M2M. Their v2 was superior to their v1.
MKS Factory - seems to take cues from JJF. Best models are the grey and blue models. Gen-like thickness.
Known flaws: Black and white dials have different dial patterns than gen. The triangles/pyramids should be stacked on top of each other, but they are instead offset between rows - not a big deal IMO. Grey dial bezel should be titanium, but appears to be painted (unvetted claim). All models have a flat cross below 12, gen has a nicely beveled cross
Overseas generation 3 reference 4500V
ZF/PPF (same) Factory for all references. No other factory comes close. I used to list BP Factory, but ZF blows them out of the water.
Chronometre Royal 1907: MKS factory for all models. Good not great rep.
Patrimony reference 85150: PPF is best, then AIF, MKS, and FKF.
Fiftysix reference 4600: ZF for all references.
Fiftysix complete calendar: ZF, MXF ( may have day alignment issues - right justified)
Historique reference 86300: GSF for all models. Not great, but good rep
All other references - check the TD listings for other models available, but most are either too thick, or have other significant flaws.
Richard Mille
RM011: KVF - thick but best deco, older models for thinner cases but worse deco. Glossy ceramic instead of matte, carbon fiber reinforced plastic instead of NTPT
RM035: ZF - real NTPT, closest to 1:1 size and proportions, v4 for absolute best, but all acceptable
RM055: BBR Factory has a 'clone' movement, and overall great execution. ZF - real ATZ matte ceramic case, closest to 1:1 size and proportions
RM027: EURF - serviceable tourbillon movement
RM056: EURF - sapphire bezels, plastic midcase, serviceable tourbillon movement
RM052 Skull: JBF - sometimes branded as ZF, serviceable tourbillon movement, out of production. EURF model may be available from some sources, may be same thing as JBF (unconfirmed)
RM012: KVF - thick case and weird deco, but real tourbillon. May be serviceable movement
RM68: RR Factory
RM010: RR Factory
RM07: RM Factory – including bon-bon model
Omega
Seamaster: All permutations – VSF (true clone movement), ORF, OMF
Aqua Terra: VSF (true clone movement), OMF
Seamaster Aqua Terra GMT: VSF (true clone movement)
Diver 300M: VSF (true clone movement), ZF, OMF
Planet Ocean (39mm, 42mm, 45mm): VSF (true clone movement), MKF, BP
Speedmaster Racing: HRF
DeVille 33mm: UVS Factory
No Time to Die Seamaster: VSF, ORF
Deville Dew Drop 33mm: 3S Factory
Tresor Quartz 39mm: 3M Factory
Deville 36mm: HR Factory
Speedmaster 57: OMF (but not great)
Deville Prestige 39mm: ZF
Iced-out watches/Buss down
Send these links to your TD of choice and have them price it and source it for you. Most of these are smaller batches and don't always have a 'factory name'. The stones are typically CZ. R8 factory is a go-to for most AP and Patek.
Audemars Piguet:
Another 15400 iced out https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html?t=1638928548133#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202109291819541890003593
Rose gold 15400 https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html?t=1638928548133#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202109291819541890001004
Rose gold different strap 15400 https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html?t=1638928548133#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202109291819541890009695
Rolex:
Rolex Submariner iced out green (also comes in blue and all diamonds) https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html?t=1638928514142#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202112051625336710001752
Datejust arabic dial https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202111281531004280002114
Datejust lume indices https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202111281531004280001668
Daytona Rainbow, comes in both RG and YG https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202112022034435930003330
Daytona Rainbow, in WG (stainless steel) https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202112022034435930002112
Patek:
Nautilus emerald green bezel https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202111171657334310002305
Nautilus diamonds https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202111171657334310001101
Cartier:
Iced out arabic Cartier https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202111171658280420001992
Iced out roman Cartier https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202111171658280420001992
Iced out white dial https://a202004241438341790100492.szwego.com/static/index.html#/theme_detail/A202004241438341790100492/I202111181846566510002942
Cartier
Santos (2018) 35mm or 40mm: GF for steel, BVF for two-tone or gold. GF has fixed their crystals in the most recent batches, and is the only one with a consistently gen-like bracelet. GF > BVF > V6F > 3KF. Important note: GF has been noted to have some screws fall off, whereas BVF does not seem to have this issue on the bracelet.
All AF Cartier reps are top tier, but they are not as active as some other factories, so alternatives are listed.
Tank Louis: DRF
Tank Solo: AF; K11F decent alternative.
Tank Must (2021): F1.
Tank Francaise: 8848F.
Ballon Bleu 33mm or 36mm: AF with Cal.076 or quartz; 3KF with Cal.076, or V6F with quartz are decent alternatives. Recommended to avoid models with Seiko NH05. Ballon Bleu 28mm or 42mm: AF; V6F decent alternative.
Panthere: GF for steel, BVF for two-tone or gold.
How to Read a Timegrapher
The 'Not Worth Buying In Gen' (NWBIG) Guide
How to set up your Manual Watch
List of Known Watch Factories
ZF: High quality factory for most non-Rolex watches. Overall a good factory with solid releases. Just starting to branch into AP and RM, and they are pretty good.
Noob / N Factory: NOW CLOSED 🙁 Noob factory is probably the most famous factory among others, they started a very long time ago and really developing their piece of replica. Noob makes a decent submariner, but have a great Daytona with clone movement, and a good pepsi insert. Besides Rolex, Noob also developing some brands like some Planet Ocean Omega, Blancpain, some Audemars Piguet models, and some Panerai model. Recently (5/12/21) Noob was hit very hard in a raid so their models are on hold for ~6 months (rumor on timeline).
VSF/V6F/XF/HBB/KW: re-opened. All fall under a common parent company, but VSF specializes in Omega and Rolex super-reps and Panerai, V6F does quite a bit of projects (though the name isn’t used much nowadays) and XF focuses on Audemars Piguet but recently ventured into Vacheron Constantin. HBB does Roger Dubuis.
ARF/JF: JF is the brand name of AP reps. High quality, great detail, though ZF is showing them a run for their money these days. JF also makes middle-high tier Rolex watches among others. ARF is a division that focuses on high quality Rolex releases that focus on finishing. Rumor that JF is closing.
JVS: Newer factory as of 2021, takes inspiration from VSF and aims to release high quality Rolex releases.
ZZF/Clean: Quality releases recently for Rolex. Rebranded to Clean factory. Be aware of fake
PPF: Supposedly family of ZF, but focused on Patek. Has the best current Nautilus
BP/GMF: BP is one of the OG rep factories. Has reps of most brands and models, and are at an affordable price. GMF seems to be a higher end brand focusing on finish, but sourcing from similar places.
MK/MKS: Focuses on IWC, Patek and Omega releases, though they have branched into other brands too.
TF: Specializes in tourbillons (hence “T” F), but most are 42mm and kind of thick.
GF: Originally started focusing on German watches (“G”F), but have branched into many other Swiss brands like JLC and Cartier. Creates ‘copy cat’ models for a bit cheaper, and sometimes surprises with improved details
FK: Makes quite a few reps, most are not very good or just barely miss the mark for one specific reason. However, their Breguet 5177 v3 watch is superb!!! So do not underestimate any release of theirs.
R Factory: Rolex
YLF: Connected to ZF, focuses on IWC
VRF: Specialized in the Rolex arena with an excellent sub, excellent new VR3135 movement, and gold wrapped subs too.
OMF: Focuses on middle tier quality and prices, but recently have high quality Omega releases
PF: Revolutionized the Nautilus market with the first thin Nautilus. However, they were recently outdone by PPF and 3K. Focused on Patek, but have other releases.
3K: Newer factory (as of 2020) that released a clone Patek movement.
JJF: Focused on Vacheron and Patek releases, came out with the great Overseas rep. Rumor is they shut down though.
TTF: tbc
GDF: tbcHow to Identify Scammers & Avoid Scams
Wrist Watch Size Guide
Guide to the Best Budget Mid-Tier Watches ($250-$400)
Automatic Vs. Quartz. Vs. Mechanical Watch Movements Guide
Omega Buying Guide
Guide to Known Clasp Codes for Rolex
93150 – Submariner – Non SEL Stainless Steel Oyster bracelet with fliplock clasp:
D12 – Raffles – stamped 62523H 18 – Bracelet stamped 70216 – Endlinks stamped 455b
MA11 – Yuki – stamped 93250 – Bracelet stamped 93250 – Endlinks stamped 448b.
Z10? – JKF/Cartel – stamped 76753? – Bracelet stamped 93150 – Endlinks stamped 580.
93250 – Submariner – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster bracelet with fliplock clasp:
EO6 – JF – stamped 93250 – SEL engraved EO 93250.
EO6 – TC V1 – stamped 93250 – SEL engraved EO 93250.
DE6 – TC V2/WM9 – stamped 93250 – SEL engraved EO 93250.
PJ4 – TC V5 – stamped 93250 – No engraving to SEL.
PJ4 – TC V6 – stamped 93250 – ??
PJ4 – TC V7 – stamped 93250 – No
DE6 – BP – stamped 93250.
CL1 – Sean – stamped 93250 – ??
CL1 – TW Best – stamped 93250 – SEL engraved AD 93288. (Being sold by Detroit Watch Works as genuine. Although their SEL engravings show AD 93250. See here:
)
CL10 – ARF – stamped 93253 – SEL engraved EO 93250 – *904L
93160 – Sea-Dweller – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster bracelet with fliplock clasp:
OP10 – BP – stamped 93160A – SEL engraved EO 93160A
EO10 – TC – stamped 93160A – SEL engraved EO 93160A
93253 – Submariner – SEL Bi-Metal Oyster bracelet with fliplock clasp:
CL1 – MBW – stamped 93250 – Bracelet stamped 93250.
OP3 – WM9 – stamped 93253 – Bracelet not stamped – SEL engraved 93253 (Wrapped)
OP10 – BP – stamped 93160A – Bracelet not stamped.
?? – Sean – stamped 93150 – Bracelet stamped 93250 – SEL engraved CL 93250 & 16613. (Wrapped)
1LD – CF bluesy – SEL engraved ??
1RD – VSF bluesy- SEL engraved ??
SI9 – VSF YG – SEL engraved ??
97200 – Submariner – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster with Glidelock Clasp:
PJ3 – NOOB V1 2014/BP/REGMARINER – SEL engraved ??
2VU – NOOB V2 to V5 – SEL engraved RS 97200
1FY – NOOB V6S – SEL engraved G3Z 97200
ST9 – NOOB V7 – SEL engraved 80K 97200
ST9 – NOOB V7 – SEL engraved RS 97200
ST9 – NOOB V8 – SEL engraved RS 97200
ST9 – NOOB V9 – SEL engraved 80K 97200 – *904L
ST9 – NOOB V10 – SEL engraved G3Z 97200 – *904L
T1G – NOOB V10 – SEL engraved G3Z 97200 – *904L
ST9 – NAIL – SEL engraved 6YZ 97203 – *904L
ST9 – VRF – SEL engraved RS 97200 –
J9K – VRF MAX – SEL engraved ?? 97200 – *904L
ST9 – BP – SEL engraved RS 97200
PJ3 – BP – SEL engraved ??
6YZ – BP V2/GM Factory – SEL engraved ??
Y8C – ARF V1 – SEL engraved 590 97200
E5N – ARF V1 & V2 – SEL engraved 5VM 97200 – *904L
X7F – LF – SEL engraved 5WD 97200
PJ3 – JF V1 – SEL engraved ??
PJ3 – REGMARINER – SEL engraved ??
X0P – JF V2 – SEL engraved 590
ST9 – DJF – SEL engraved ?? – *904L
0HA – DJF – SEL engraved T4J 97200- *904L
6YZ – GMF – SEL engraved 6YZ 97203 – *904L
M7J – EXF – SEL engraved ??
7KY – ORF – SEL engraved ?? – *904L
C4R – ZZF V2 – SEL engraved P5M 97200 – *904L
C4R – ZZF V2S – SEL engraved RS 97200 – *904L
7QJ – RXF/XF – SEL engraved T2A 97200 – *904L
1NQ – EWF 41 mm – SEL engraved ?? 316L
UTN – EWF 40 mm – SEL engraved ?? 316L
1LD – CF Date / No Date – SEL engraved ?? 904L
H7Z – VSF Starbucks & Cookiemonster – SEL engraved ?? 904L
7GJ – VSF Date / No Date 40 mm – SEL engraved ?? 904L
H7Z – VSF 41 mm – SEL engraved ?? 904L
1LQ – VSF Date 41 mm Rehaut: 2R… – SEL engraved ?? 904L
6SH / 7GJ – VSF No Date 40 mm – SEL engraved ?? 904L
T1G – VRF Andrea Pirlo No Date 40 mm – SEL engraved “??” 904L
1NQ – GD Factory (low-tier) selled as VSF be aware!
97220 – SD43 – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster with Fliplock Clasp:
453 – VRF – SEL engraved H4Y 97220
4RL – ARF – SEL engraved C4R 97220
4RL – ARF V3 – SEL engraved C4R 97220 – *904
C4R – Noob – SEL engraved ??
C4R – NOOB V2 – SEL engraved 0NW 97220 – *904
453 – GMF – SEL engraved H4Y 97220 – *904
98210 – DSSD – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster with Fliplock Clasp:
T4J – BP V2 – SEL engraved ??
Z6Y – ARF V2 – SEL engraved D2Y 98210 – *904
98220 – DSSD – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster with Fliplock Clasp:
T1U – ARF – SEL engraved 8UF 98220 – *904
78200 – GMT – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster polished centre links with Fliplock Clasp:
OP8 – Noob V2 – engraved 15/423 – SEL engraved OP 78200
5NF – Noob V7 – SEL engraved ??
5NF – Noob V8 – SEL engraved ??
71H – Noob CHS – SEL engraved ??
Y8C – JF v2 – SEL engraved ??
PJ1 – BP – SEL engraved ??
0HA – DJF – SEL engraved 6GF78200 – *904
T1G – Noob V9 – SEL engraved 6GF 78200 – *904
T1G – Noob V10 – SEL engraved ?? 78200 – *904
6MW – VRF 3186 Clone – SEL engraved 89K 97200 – *904
P3L – ARF 3186 clone – SEL engraved P3L 78200 – *904
5XZ – GMF – SEL engraved ?? 78200 – *904
CF Oyster & Jubilee – SEL engraved “??” 904L
69200 – GMT – SEL Stainless Steel Jubilee Fliplock Clasp:
6LX – DJF – SEL engraved A3W 62611 – *904
6MW – GMF – SEL engraved K8P 69200 – *904
6MW- BP – SEL engraved K8P 69200
6MW- Noob – SEL engraved K8P 69200 – *904
6MW- Noob – SEL engraved 1LD 69200 – *904
6MW – VRF – SEL engraved 1LD 69200 – *904
97203 – Submariner – SEL Bi-Metal Oyster with Glidelock Clasp:
Y8C – JF – SEL engraved 469 97203
6YZ – VRF – SEL engraved ??
2VU – Noob – SEL engraved PJ 97203 (Wrapped)
6YZ – BP- SEL engraved ?? (Wrapped)
78590 – Daytona – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster with Fliplock Clasp:
7CD – ARF – SEL engraved 9US 78590 – *904
5NF – Noob – SEL engraved ??
X0P – JF 7750 – SEL engraved ??
Y8C – JF v1- SEL engraved ??
X0P – JF – SEL engraved ??
7GT – BP v2 – SEL engraved ??
Y8C – JF v2 – SEL engraved E0 78493
OP8 – Phong – Clasp engraved 15/423 – SEL engraved AS 78490
Z1H – Noob 4130 clone – SEL engraved ??
T1G – Noob 4130 V2 – SEL engraved Z6S 78590 – *904
5NF – JH – SEL engraved C1Z 78590
7CD – GMF – SEL engraved ?? – *904
63600 – Datejust – SEL Stainless Steel Super Jubilee bracelet:
COC – ARF – SEL engraved 931 63600
CL5 – BP – Clasp engraved 72200 – SEL engraved ??
K6G – VSF 41 mm SS – SEL engraved ??
72600 – Datejust – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster bracelet with Oysterclasp:
7UM – ARF – SEL engraved UOP 72600A
3NY – BP – SEL engraved ??
M8N – EWF 36 mm – SEL engraved ??
7UL – VSF 41 mm SS – SEL engraved ??
70400 – Oyster Perpetual – SEL Stainless Steel Oyster bracelet with Oysterclasp:
7UM – JF – SEL engraved 7GT 70400
Below are some models which I added:
Day-Date 36/40 – Clasp-Codes Stainless Steel plated / non-plated with presidential Bracelet:
7GT – BP 36 & 40mm 316L – SEL engraved “??”
7GT – GMF 904L – SEL engraved “??”
2EM – EWF – SEL engraved “??”
7GT – Noob – SEL engraved “??”
Yacht-Master I 37-/ 40-/ 42 mm -Stainless Steel plated / non-plated with Oysterclasp:
W5T – 226659 VSF 42 mm Rubber/SS – SEL engraved “??”
5XZ – 226659 GMF 42 mm Rubber/SS – SEL engraved “??”
9AX – 268622 ARF 37 mm SS – SEL engraved “??”
7CD – 116622 ARF 40 mm SS – SEL engraved “??”
3DD – 116622 Noob 40 mm SS – SEL engraved “??”
5XZ – 116622 BP 40 mm SS – SEL engraved “??”
7CD – 116621 ARF 40 mm RG – SEL engraved “??”
6OD – 116655 ARF 40 mm Rubber/RG – SEL engraved “??”
138 – 116655 Noob 40 mm Rubber/RG – SEL engraved “??”
BECAUSE THERE ARE ACTUALLY FAKES OF FAKES I WILL MENTION THEM ABOVE:
1LD – 11661X FAKE CLEAN SUBMARINERS – rehaut engraved “U9N5” (here is important, that the fake CF has 1LD smaller than “Steelinox”)t
he stickers are not that clean than the real ones.
and
FAKE CLEAN MONKEYand
THIS
2R2 – 126619LB FAKE VSF COOKIEMONSTER –
and
Guide to distinguish a real CF by /u/LinxujiaSourceList of Trusted Watchsmiths
The Rules as follows for the process of becoming a watchsmith, and what we hold as an agreement with each and every watchsmith that becomes trusted.
1 – ID verification
2 – Sticked post on your own profile stating services that watchsmith provides.
3 – Information about the movements watchsmith has experience servicing.
4 – Rough public estimate of the cost of service (price range).
5 – After becoming a TWS (Trusted Watchsmith) At least 2 monthly contributions to the subreddit that are educational in nature.
6 – Warranty on all the services provided by the watchsmith (water damage is not included)
7 – Provide proof (photos) to the client about the services performed
8 – Open a sticky for customers feedback
9 – Before becoming a trusted watchsmith you will be vetted by mod’s and Watchsmiths alike.
TRUSTED WATCHSMITHS *This will be updated as more become available.
CONUS:
u/TButteryBeginner’s Guide to Clone Movements in Rolex Replica Watches
When buying a high end replica watch, it’s important to consider both what’s on the outside and what’s on the inside. The factories in China have invested millions of dollars in re-producing exact copies of various Swiss watch movements from ETA, and in-house movements from Rolex, AP, Patek Philippe, and Richard Mille. The accuracy of the replication varies, as does their reliability of these movements. In this guide I hope to be able to give you a basic understanding of which mechanical movements are good, which ones are ok, and which ones to avoid, and importantly, how to tell the various movements apart, since the information listed on Trusted Dealer websites in the descriptions isn’t terribly accurate.
Rolex has by far the largest market share of all replica watches. As such, it’s not surprising that there are a plethora of clone movements available for the popular Rolex models.
For 40mm submariners (i.e. those with reference number 1166XX) There are six options:
For reference here’s the genuine Rolex caliber 3135. Note how there is only one arm (the beat adjustor) on the balance bridge of the genuine movement. This is because the genuine movement has a “free sprung” balance. That means on the genuine movement the speed of the movement is regulated by adjusting the moment of inertia of the balance wheel via tiny weighted screws on the rim of the wheel. On all replica movements, regulation is done via a regulation arm that can be adjusted to lengthen or shorten the effective length of the hairspring. That’s why you see only one arm on the genuine movement, but two arms on the replica movements.
Gen Rolex 3135
Excellent quality part finishing and engraving. Hairspring mounted clockwise. This is the best super clone movement of the 3135. Note, there is a VS3130 version of this movement which is used on the no-date 40mm VSF subs (ref number 114060). The VS3130 is of equal quality to the VS3135, it is the best option for a no-date 40mm sub.
VS3135
Good quality part finishing and engraving. Hairspring mounted clockwise. This is the second best clone of the 3135 movement. Note, there is a no-date version of the VR3135 called the VR3130. The VR3130 is a good quality no-date movement, second only to the VS3130.
VR3135
Very low quality finishing, hairpsing mounted counter clockwise. Avoid this movement if possible. There is also a no-date version of this movement called the SH3130 (or sometimes the AR3130) which is of similarly poor quality. Avoid both the SH3135 and SH3130 (AR3130).
SH3135
Reasonable quality of part finishing, poor quality engraving. Hairspring mounted counter clockwise. Go with the VR or VS movement if you have the choice or budget. There is a no-date version of this movement called the SA3130, which is of similar quality to the SA3135; as such a better choice for a no-date 40mm submariner is the VS3130 or VR3130.
SA3135
This isn’t a clone of a Rolex movement, rather it is a clone of an ETA 2824 movement. This movement is reliable and easy to service and get replacement parts for. However, it doesn’t even remotely resemble what you’d find inside a Rolex. If you don’t care about what movement powers your rep, this isn’t a bad option.
A2824
Another clone of an ETA movement that is never found inside a real Rolex. This movement is also reliable and easy to service. Some people prefer these movements since they are easy to fix or replace and “nobody can see inside my rep submariner”... the functions at the crown i.e. the direction you have to twist to set the date / time, will not necessarily be the same as on a cloned movement.
A2836
It’s worth noting that there are some 36mm Datejusts that use the VR3235 movement, but the majority seem to use an ETA clone. The VR3235 is a good movement, so if you’re looking for a Datejust 36mm try to find one that has a VR3235. Unfortunately, the 3235 movement is too big for the 31mm Datejust case, so all replica 31mm Datejusts use lower end Asian clones of ETA movements. This is just a function of market pressure: there’s not a lot of demand for replica watches in lady sizes.
The genuine Rolex caliber 3235 is a relatively new movement with an astonishing 72 hour power reserve. Just like the genuine 3135 the genuine 3235 doesn’t have a regulation arm on the balance bridge since the movement is regulated by adjusting micro screw weights on the rim of the balance wheel. All the replica 3235 movements have a regulation arm, so you’ll always see two arms on the rep movement balance bridges.
Gen Rolex 3235
This is an incredible movement that is currently only available in VS Factory subs and DJs. The movement has an amazing 70+ hour power reserve and is part compatible with the genuine Rolex movement. This means that it’s possible to swap gen parts into this movement to improve it. A common part swap on this movement is to replace the balance complete, pallet fork, and escape wheel with gen parts. With those parts swapped, the movement is virtually indistinguishable from the genuine caliber. Note: The easy way to identify this movement is to look at the position of the two arms coming off the balance bridge: on the VS movement they face outwards. Note: there is currently no non-date version of the VS3235, that is a "VS3230" movement doesn't exist (as of August 2022). The best option for a no-date 41mm submariner is the VR3230 movement (see below).
VS3235
This is a very common movement that is used in Subs and DJs from many different factories. This movement is technically not a clone but more of a hybrid between a 3135 and 3235 movement. This movement is reliable, although it doesn’t have the same power reserve of the VS3235, at only around 40 hours. While spare parts for this movement can be hard to find, a replacement movement is only around 100 USD on AliExpress, so it’s often more economical to replace the movement with a new one rather than service an old one. This movement is easy to identify because it has a “fake” beat adjuster arm pointing outwards from the balance bridge, but the two functional arms (beat and rate) are hidden underneath the balance bridge and face inwards. Also of note, the end-shake adjustment screw on the balance bridge isn’t functional, so adjusting the end-shake of the balance needs to be done with foil shims. Note: there is a no-date version of this movement called the VR3230 which is used on Clean Factory (CF) no-date 41mm submariners (as of August 2022). The VR3230 is the best option for a clone movement in a no-date 41mm submariner.
VR3235
This movement appears in some DJ41s and DJ36s. This is not a great movement, and should be avoided. The movement is decorated with poor quality plates. In the images it’s possible to see paint flaking off of the “reversing wheels” of the automatic model. This movement can easily be identified by the decoration at the center of the rotor that is trying to make it look like the rotor runs on ball bearings like the VS and VR (and gen) movements above. Furthermore, the shock setting spring on the balance bridge is a three sided closed spring vs. the paraflex springs that are present on the gen, VS and VR (although on the VR the paraflex spring is part of a decoration plate, and the real shock setting can be found underneath). This is a movement to avoid.
SA3235
SA3235 (Low quality paint flakes)
This is not a clone of a Rolex movement, but rather an asian clone of an ETA movement. This movement was discussed above in the 40mm submariner section. But here again, the movement is reliable and easy to service, but not functionally the same as the genuine movement in terms of the functions of the crown for setting / winding. With the ubiquity and low cost of the VR3235, this movement is found on very few high end 41mm submainers.
For GMT movements, there are movements that have the correct hand stack (CHS) and incorrect hand stack (ICHS) on modern (6-digit) GMT models (1167XX, and 1267XX). Correct hand stack means that the hour hand is on the bottom, the GMT hand is next, then the minute hand, and the seconds hand is on top. Incorrect Hand Stack means that the GMT hand is on the bottom, the hour hand is on top of the GMT hand, then the minute hand, and the seconds hand on top.
This is the movement you want. The VR3186 is reliable and has an hour hand jumping mechanism that isn’t weak. The VR3186 is sometimes engraved with the number 3285, but it’s the same movement. Below are two pictures showing the same movement with different engraving. Note that this movement is easily identifiable by the position of the arms on the balance bridge: both the beat adjuster and regulator arm point inwards and there’s a fake beat adjuster arm facing outwards.
The VR3185 with 3285 engraving has shown up recently (Summer 2022) on C+ Factory model GMTs. There are rumors that there is a new true 3285 clone movement in the works, and the C+ Factory will be the first to get access to it. But as of August 2022, C+ Factory is using the VR3186 movement and simply engraving 3285 onto it.
VR3186
VR3285 (actually a VR3186 with "3235" engraved on it)
This is a time-bomb movement that should be avoided. The hour hand jumping mechanism is weak on this movement and is prone to breaking. Furthermore, the hour hand jumping mechanism isn’t gen-spec, so it can’t be repaired with gen parts. This movement can be identified by inspecting the balance bridge: the two regulation arms point outwards (unlike the VR3186) and the shock setting has a steel cup (rather than a brass cup like the SA3186).
SH3186
This is another time-bomb movement. Like the SH3186 this movement has a weak hour hand jumping mechanism and should be avoided. This movement can be identified again by the position of the regulation arm on the balance bridge and the fact that unlike the SH3186, it has a brass cup for the balance bridge shock setting.
SA3186
This isn’t a clone of a rolex movement, but rather a clone of an ETA movement that is decorated to look like a rolex movement. ETA GMT movements are reliable and inexpensive to service and repair, however, the functionality does not match the Rolex GMT calibers. A better option is the VR3186.
A3186
It’s unclear why this movement is labeled as an Asian clone of the ETA 2836, since the ETA 2836 is not a GMT movement. It’s more likely that this is a clone of the ETA 2893 movement. Nonetheless, this movement is not going to function like a genuine Rolex GMT movement, and has the wrong hand stack on the dial. A far better option is to go with the VR3186.
A2836
This movement is also known as the Noob4130 / N4130 / Dandong 4130. They are all the same. This movement is one of the highest quality replica movements available. For a long time it was exclusively available to Noob Factory. When Noob was raided and shut down in 2021, this movement disappeared from the rep scene. However, in early 2022 Clean Factory (CF), and then Better Factory (BTF), and Q Factory (QF) started making Daytonas with this movement. Daytonas with this movement are more expensive than Daytonas with a 7750 movement. However, if you care about the reliability and longevity of your rep, go for the 4130. It’s worth the extra cost.
The 4130 movement is also compatible with genuine Rolex parts. It’s common to replace the balance-complete, and the chronograph seconds wheel to build a movement that is nearly indistinguishable from the genuine Rolex caliber 4130.
The 4130 looks completely different from the 7750, learn to tell the two apart so that you can validate any claims made by a seller.
Noob / Dandong 4130
This is an Asian clone of an ETA 7750 movement. The reason that this movement isn’t great for the Daytona is because it is thicker than the 4130 movement, so the movement is often slimmed down (and thus made less reliable) to fit inside a 12.4mm thick Daytona case. Furthermore, the Daytona has its small seconds at 6 o’clock, but this is not the default position for the small seconds complication on the 7750 movement; various additional wheels need to be added to the top of the 7750 movement to get everything into the correct position. This complication adds stress to the movement and reduces reliability. With the clone 4130 widely available, it's a good idea to avoid Daytonas with the 7750 movement.
Asian 7750
Guide to Movements in Audemars Piguet, Patek Philippe & Richard Mille
This guide will be an introduction to the clone movements found in Audemars Piguet (AP), Patek Philippe (PP), and Richard Mille (RM) replicas. Just like with the clone Rolex movements, the clone movements for AP, PP, and RM are of varying quality in terms of how well they replicate the genuine movement in form & function, but also quality. However, unlike Rolex clone movements where there can be multiple different clones of a single movement (e.g. the plethora of Rolex caliber 3135 and 3235 clones), with AP, PP, and RM, there's usually just one clone movement, so I'll try to compare and contrast the clone against the alternative which is often a decorated Japanese Miyota 9015 movement.
The most popular AP replica (by far) is the Royal Oak (RO). There are two replica AP movements, one for the RO 15400: the clone 3120 movement by Z Factory (ZF). And one for the RO 15500: the clone 4302 movement by APS Factory (APSF). The alternative to these cloned movements is the Japanese Miyota 9015 movement.
The clone 3120 movement is found in both the Z Factory (ZF) and APS Factory (APSF) AP RO 15400 replicas watches at present (summer 2022). However, both factories used a decorated Miyota movement several years ago before the clone movement became available. So be careful when buying an AP 15400, just because it’s from ZF or APSF doesn’t necessarily mean that it has a clone movement.
The clone movement can be distinguished from the Miyota by the position of the balance wheel at 8 o’clock vs. 5 o’clock on the Miyota. Furthermore, the Miyota has a non-function shock setting without a spring on the balance bridge, whereas the clone has a functional shock setting on the balance bridge.
Unfortunately, both the clone movement and the Miyota 9015 have a slow date change at midnight, whereas the genuine AP 3120 movement has an instant date change at midnight.
Clone AP 3120
The Miyota 9015 is a reliable workhorse movement, and older / lower end AP 15400 replicas used a decorated version of this movement. However, the clone 3120 movement is reliable and is a more authentic option over the Miyota if you’re looking for a genuine appearance through the transparent caseback.
Miyota 9015 decorated to look like an AP 3120
The clone 4302 movement is new (as of summer 2022), but appears to be an excellent movement. The initial review by a watchsmith at RWI said that the movement is on par with the Noob Daytona 4130 movement (the 4130 Daytona movement is widely considered to be the best clone movement ever made, so this is VERY high praise). Like the genuine AP 4302 movement, the clone features an instant date change at midnight. The quality of this movement makes it the no-brainer choice for an AP 15500.
This movement is used in both the ZF and APSF version of the AP 15500, however, the ZF version has a spelling error in the engraving / printing on the back side of the movement (the word JEWELS is spelled JEWEES on the ZF version as of August 2022). This may be something that gets corrected soon, however, it’s worth checking during QC to ensure this error is not present.
Clone AP 4302
The Miyota is no longer a good choice for the AP 15500 due to the fact that it has a slow date change, and while it is reliable, it is now competing with an extremely high quality replica movement.
Miyota 9015 decorated to look like an AP 4302
There are only two clone movements available for Patek reps, the caliber 324 for the Nautilus 5711 and Aquanaut, and the 240 for the Nautilus 5712. All other Patek reps use a Miyota or another Asian movement.
Both the 5711 Nautilus and the 5167 Aquanaut share the same Patek Philippe caliber 324 movement. This movement has been cloned and is available in reps from 3K Factory (3KF). However, older Aquanauts use the Miyota. For the 5711 Nautilus there is a version of the Miyota that has been well decorated and rotated so that the balance wheel appears to be in the correct location compared to the gen 324 movement. However, all of these movements have a slow date change at midnight, whereas the genuine movement has an instant midnight date change.
The Clone 324 movement can be found in 3K Factory reps of the Nautilus and Aquanaut. This is a good movement, but doesn’t have a very large power reserve and requires a large amount of winding or rotor spinning (possibly due to non gen-spec gearing in the automatic module). The movement can be identified and differentiated against the rotated Miyota by the functional main train wheels visible above the balance wheel which are not present in the rotated Miyota.
3KF Clone 324 movement in an Aquanaut
3KF Clone 324 in a 5711 Nautilus
The Miyota 9015 is a common movement that has been discussed above, it is often found in lower end or older Patek reps. It is reliable, easy & cheap to service. It doesn’t have an instant date change at midnight. And it suffers from a loud rotor. This movement is easy to distinguish from the clone 324 because the balance bridge (cock) is anchored on the crown side which is reversed in the clone and gen movement. There are also noticeable differences in the screw and ball bearing assembly of the rotor at the center of the movement. This isn’t a bad movement if you don’t really care about an authentic look, However, given the open caseback on Patek watches, the clone or rotated Miyota are better options.
Miyota 9015 decorated to look like a PP 324
PP Factory (PPF) has developed a rotated and well decorated Miyota variant that looks more similar to the gen movement than an undecorated Miyota, but is still noticeably a worse imitation than the 3KF clone 324 movement discussed above. This movement is easy to differentiate from the clone 324 movement due to the lack of main train wheels above the balance wheel. Also, the fake “jewels” where the main train wheels should be, are red and the rest of the functional jewels in the movement are purple. The rotated Miyota also doesn’t have its rotor running on ball bearings, whereas the clone and gen both do. The 3KF clone movement is a better option if you want a more gen-like rep.
Rotated Miyota 9015 decorated to look like a PP 324
The 5712 is a Nautilus with a lot of complications. The gen model features a power reserve indicator, small seconds, date, and moon phase indicator. Furthermore, the genuine Patek 240 caliber features a micro-rotor to keep the movement incredibly thin. With all of this complication it is truly impressive that PP Factory (PPF) has managed to build a fully functional clone movement which has only minor cosmetic differences from the genuine Patek 240 caliber. The clone movement doesn’t appear to be available exclusively from PPF, as it has appeared in 5712 reps from GR Factory (GRF) as of summer 2022.
The clone 240 movement is an impressive feat of engineering. This is a thin movement with many complications. This movement is still very new (as of summer 2022), and as such, there is not yet a consensus as to its reliability, although an initial review by a watchsmith on RWI confirmed that the build quality was good, and there were no surprises.
Clone PP 240 movement
There is an old version of the 5712 that comes with a decorated generic Asian 23 Jewel movement. This version is much thicker than the gen which makes rep 5712s with this movement 10.5mm thick vs. 8.4mm thick for reps using the clone. Also, this movement doesn't have a functional power reserve indicator. With the availability of the clone 240 movement, this is not a recommended option.
Miyota 9015 decorated to look like a PP 240
Richard Mille watches are extremely complicated and use many exotic materials. So far there has only been one attempt at a clone movement for a Richard Mille: a clone movement for the RM 055 by BBR Factory of the RMUL2 movement. Previously all RM055’s used a decorated version of the Seiko NH05A movement.
The clone movement is impressive, but flawed and unreliable. This is a movement that should probably be avoided until there is an improvement to its reliability. The movement looks considerably closer to the gen RM movement than the NH05A movement which is used in other RM055 replicas. However, there are obvious flaws, for example the balance wheel shock setting jewel of the clone movement is purple, whereas the gen jewel is clear / white.
More worryingly, there have been many reports of this movement arriving dead after a watch was shipped from a TD to a customer. Additionally, the movement has significant stuttering of the second hand due to backlash between gears.
While this movement is an impressive feat of engineering, this movement is not currently recommended.
RM 55 clone RMUL2 movement
The NH05A movement is well decorated and dressed up to look like the gen RM055 movement, but it is obviously not genuine, and that fact is on display due to the open worked design of the RM055 case. This is a reliable movement. However, a gen RM055 is a roughly half million dollar watch, unless you own a Ferrari, nobody will need to look at the movement to know that your RM055 is a rep. If you like RM reps, buy them, wear them, enjoy them, and don't worry about how real or fake the movement looks.
Seiko NH05A movement decorated to look like an RM movement
Guide to who Makes the Best Ladies Replica Watches
This guide was created to help guide those who are interested in Ladies watches. The factories listed are in order of best to not best, but for many of these there is only one factory making the particular model here.
Note: where it says “unknown factory”, it means a replica exists, but you’ll need to ask your TD with a picture of the watch you’re looking for. Some of these are from smaller factories, with smaller batches, and could be out of stock.
Datejust 36mm: GMF, ARF, BPF
Datejust 31mm: GMF, GSF, WF, APS has the new 2022 dials, EWF
Datejust 28mm: GMF, BP, WF, CSF
Daydate 36mm: GMF, BP, EWF
Explorer 36mm: BP, EWF
Oyster Perpetual 36mm: EWF
Oyster Perpetual 34mm: ANF
Yachtmaster 34mm: BP Factory
Pearlmaster 34mm: K6 Factory
Nautilus 7118 35mm: 3KF (super rep), PF, MSF
Nautilus 7010 32mm: unknown factory
Aquanaut 37mm: ZF
Aquanaut 35mm: PPF
Twenty~4 25mm: AW Factory
Royal Oak 67540 37mm: RXW (super-rep)
Royal Oak 15450 37mm: JF
Royal Oak 77350 34mm: BF (SS, YG, RG, Two Tone)
Royal Oak 67650: JF (potentially out of stock)
Royal Oak Frosted 33mm: OMF
Royal Oak 67601 33mm: RF
Royal Oak Offshore 26231 37mm Chronograph: RXW
Ballon Bleu 33mm: AF (if available, comes in white, pink and diamond bezel), otherwise 3KF
Ballon Bleu 28mm: AF, 3KF
Cle De Cartier 31mm: DR Factory
Cheetah series (27 x 37mm): GF, K11 factory, BVF
Must de Cartier (round): unknown factory
Panthere de Cartier (small 22mm): BVF
Pasha: 3KF, BVF
Santos 36mm: 3KF, GF
Santos-Dumont (medium 38 x 27.5): F1 factory
Tank Americaine: GSF
Tank MUST de Cartier (medium 33.7 x 25mm): F1 factory (red, green, white and blue dials), White dial also with bracelet, K11F
Tank Must de Cartier (small 29.5 x 22mm): F1 factory with bracelet (with and without diamonds), K11 Factory, DR
Tank Solo (small & medium): AF
Sweet Alhambra 4-leaf clover: VCA Factory
Charms Collection (25mm, 32mm, & 38mm): BVF
Pont de Amoureux 38mm: 5GF
Poetic Complication: VCA Factory
Lady Feerie: 5GF
Lady Arpels Ballerine Enchantee: 5GF
Heure H watch 26 & 30mm: BVF
Kelly 2: unknown factory
Ladies Overseas 33mm: RXW. Good date font, comes in polished or diamond bezel.
Heritage 31mm: TWF
Rendezvous Night & Day: ZF super rep, all variations. GF is another good factory
Rendezvous Moon: CCF
Rendezvous Tourbillon: RMS
Reverso One 20mm: IMF (could also be TWF?)
J12 Electro Dream: TWF
J12 33mm: KOR, East Factory
J12 38mm: KOR, East Factory
Code Coco: unknown factory
Camelia watch, with moving cover (multiple variants): VAV Factory
Mademoiselle Prive: TTF
BOY FRIEND: BVF
Premiere Rock Pop 16mm: BVF
Ruban Bow Tie: VCA Factory
Ruban Bow Bracelet: VCA Factory
Premiere: BVF
Constellation 24mm : 8848F, GF
Constellation 27mm: 8848F
Constellation 29mm: TWS Factory
Deville 27mm: BVF
Aqua Terra Seamaster ladies 34mm: VSF, RWF
Ladymatic: V6F
Happy Sport all sizes (30mm, 33mm, 36mm): BVF, YF, LT Factory
Happy Diamonds: TF
Imperiale: unknown factory
L’Heure Du Diamant Round: unknown
Reine de Naples: ZF (super rep)
Serpenti: BVF
Divas Dream: unknown
LVCEA: BVF
B.ZERO1: BVF
La D De Dior 25mm: unknown factory
LA D DE DIOR ROSE CÉLESTE: “original Single” Factory (原单厂)
Gem Dior 27mm: TWF multiple dials
Limelight Stella: CCF
Limelight High Jewellery 31mm: unknown factory
Limelight Gala: unknown
Bee watch with two tone bracelet: unknown factory
GRIP watch 38mm: unknown factory
G-Timeless Cat Head: “original Single” Factory (原单厂)
Vintage Quartz flip cover: “original Single” Factory (原单厂)
Diamantissima 22 & 27mm: “original Single” Factory (原单厂)
Tambour Monogram 34mm: AF
Tambour Horizon Smart watch: unknown factory
